Shakesville - Latest Comments in Women and Men

Re: Women and Men

lyndah — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:38:24 -0000

The point about wage rates is actually very important. It's all well and good having a powerful union that negotiates kick-ass wages for manual labourers, for example, (ie the under-qualified who would otherwise struggle to find well-paid work), but when things turn financially sour for businesses, two things happen. Firstly, the big wage/small qualification guys lose their jobs and secondly, they struggle to find another one, because they are not qualified to do anything else.
And as others have pointed out, men in these types of industries are often immune to any arguments that it is important to upskill, not just in your own industry, but to have a fall-back plan should the gravy train come to a halt. They don't and this is the consequence.

I think women who are lower skilled are different also because the sort of work they do and know is more portable: if you have ever served in a shop, you are probably good at anything that involves customer contact. Which means that, for example, you could go from working in a grocery store to working the front desk of a tourist bureau to working in a call centre without having to break into a sweat. When things go sour economically, that portability really comes to the fore.

Re: Women and Men

shoutz — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:57:14 -0000

roramich said one of the things I was thinking - this isn't a "who's getting hit worse" thing. As a woman who is sole support for a household where my Masters educated husband has been beating the pavement for 18 months trying to find work, I can say with a straight face that this is affecting *both* of us pretty significantly. Sure, he's not working, which is rough on him... but the weight of being the one keeping things afloat hasn't been a walk in the park. Jeez, what is it about some folks and the big picture?

Re: Women and Men

Lalaroo — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 03:28:25 -0000

I have a whole rant about the "gosh-how-do-you-work-with-all-those-women" crap that goes with this kind of job, but I'll save it.

What's worse is when that crap comes from women! It's enough to almost make my brain explode in anger and sadness.

Re: Women and Men

gypsydth — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:58:21 -0000

Melissa, if it weren't for some of the male nurses where my grandparents were in assisted living, my grandfather would have lived there with a lot less dignity and comfort. The male nurses there were some of the best nurses I've met, and knew just how to balance empathy and concern with perceived manliness with him (which mattered to him). Pfft, women's work. Men have some great qualities to bring to the profession just like we do. I hope he enjoys the work and finds it fulfilling!

Re: Women and Men

Kate217 — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:56:10 -0000

Not to mention that the numbers are lower for women not only because we can, on occasion, fall back on another breadwinner, but also that those of us who can't will take any fucking job we can get. I could have made more on unemployment than taking the retail job I did (which has since been cut back to part time). And because I didn't realize that it would screw me out of qualifying for unemployment, I can't really leave it. My main reason for taking it was to keep me getting out of bed in the morning, but I shouldn't have bothered, because I shot my whole leg off in the process.

Re: Women and Men

Sniper — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:10:12 -0000

Good to hear. I have a whole rant about the "gosh-how-do-you-work-with-all-those-women" crap that goes with this kind of job, but I'll save it.

Re: Women and Men

Melissa McEwan — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:02:04 -0000

he's going to get a lot of shit for doing "lady work".

To be filed under: Things that will just make him laugh.

:-)

Re: Women and Men

Sniper — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:53:33 -0000

I'm certain he'll make an excellent nurse, too.

I hope he loves his new job, because if it's anything like teaching, he's going to get a lot of shit for doing "lady work". Mind you, he'll also get people who'll treat him like a saint for stooping to lady work. This is as depressingly predictable as it is ridiculous. Good luck to him.

Re: Women and Men

Melissa McEwan — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:42:00 -0000

Why don't the crane operators, drywallers, etc. switch jobs? Nursing may not pay as much, but it's a respected profession.

It would be more respected if it had more dudes.

My ex-husband recently decided to switch careers after spending his whole adult life working in corporate America. He wanted to do something more fulfilling. So he quit his job and is now going to nursing school full time.

He told me when he was trying to figure out what to do that would be meaningful, he said he didn't have to look far for good examples -- his mom and his aunt are both nurses. I thought that was really sweet.

I'm certain he'll make an excellent nurse, too.

Re: Women and Men

Sniper — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:28:12 -0000

Nursing may not pay as much, but it's a respected profession.

It would be more respected if it had more dudes.

Re: Women and Men

BlueJean — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:15:32 -0000

Well, there's a critical shortage of nurses, especially with an aging population. Why don't the crane operators, drywallers, etc. switch jobs? Nursing may not pay as much, but it's a respected profession.

Wait, what did you say? Wouldn't be manly?

Of course. My mistake.

Re: Women and Men

roramich — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:44:18 -0000

You know, it never seems to occur to the "excellent" Mr. Reynolds that many of the welders he's so concerned about will, ya know, live WITH WOMEN, whose salaries, if employed, are rarely enough to support a family. I'd be willing to bet that in most other respects Mr. Reynolds assumes everyone is hetero, but here, somehow, the men are set totally apart from the women, who are somehow WINNING something, I don't even know what, in the strangest construction of a zero sum game I've seen in a while.
Or also, what Sniper said!

Re: Women and Men

TheDeviantE — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:31:12 -0000

Kevin: YES!
Also, giggles induced by Sniper:

Right. Because if there's something women's groups agree on, it's that higher unemployment will make our lives easier. So. Fucking. Stupid.

and samanthab

Who are these women's groups preoccupying themselves with male welders?

Re: Women and Men

Sniper — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:28:06 -0000

Rescuing hundreds of thousands of unemployed crane operators, welders, production line managers, and machine setters was never going to be easy. But the concerted opposition of several powerful women's groups has made it all but impossible.

Right. Because if there's something women's groups agree on, it's that higher unemployment will make our lives easier. So. Fucking. Stupid.

Also, this post prompted me to look up construction wages, and I was a little surprised to see that the average drywaller makes as much as a 2nd year teacher with an M.Ed. in my district. Huh. No wonder the loss of so many construction jobs is such a tragedy!

Re: Women and Men

blondie — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:16:36 -0000

Rescuing hundreds of thousands of unemployed crane operators, welders, production line managers, and machine setters was never going to be easy. But the concerted opposition of several powerful women's groups has made it all but impossible.

Was this "concerted opposition" some super-secret plan? This is the first I've heard of it. Plus, the steps connecting cause and effect seem to have gone missing. Just how have these secret, yet powerful, women's groups managed to destroy hundreds of thousands of "man jobs?" Are they evil genuises?

Re: Women and Men

summerwing — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:06:34 -0000

If one person gets paid more than another for doing the same job, and you're their supervisor and have to let one of them go... who are you going to pick? I would submit that most people would choose to lay off the person who gets the larger salary. Their wage gap is fucking them over and I couldn't care less.

Re: Women and Men

larkohio — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:45:40 -0000

So they are blaming women?? You have to be kidding me! We have never had many women working in construction, etc. They did not push us out, since we have never been allowed into their little party. You can bet your booties that women are truly the ones hurting in this recession, if you are a single mother, you have it tough, if you are an older woman you have it tough, and if you are a young woman trying to enter the job market you really have it tough etc.!. What a bunch of BS!

Re: Women and Men

NameChanged — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:43:39 -0000

Crazy like a clairvoyant fox!

It boggles my mind to try to swallow all of the unlogic that gets thrown around when people scream "What about the MENZZZZ??!!!??"

Great post, you concisely and clearly present things that swirl in my brain, but have no definition. Thanks Melissa!

Re: Women and Men

samanthab — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:37:47 -0000

"Rescuing hundreds of thousands of unemployed crane operators, welders, production line managers, and machine setters was never going to be easy. But the concerted opposition of several powerful women's groups has made it all but impossible."

What in hell is that supposed to MEAN? He doesn't feel at all obligated to demonstratively back up his claims? Who are these women's groups preoccupying themselves with male welders?

Re: Women and Men

treebee72 — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:37:19 -0000

This shit just makes me so tired...

Re: Women and Men

Kevin Wolf — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:35:28 -0000

Bears repeating again and again: The patriarchy is bad for everybody.