Shakesville - Latest Comments in Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

KendallJ — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:15:03 -0000

Part of the reason we don't discuss gender issues is because as soon as we do, we are told OH what about race??? While, sometimes gender needs to be talked about on center stage. The issue needs to be about women, all women of all races. Racism should not pre-ampt discussions of Misogyny and it too often is. Misogymy is the largest and most pervassive form of discrimination and oppression in the world, and no it cannot be covered up or drowned out by issues of race.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

GeekLove08 — Sat, 17 May 2008 01:31:38 -0000

I helped create the "Mad is Hell" video (re. media bias against HIllary Clinton) along with IndyRobin.

I created a NEW VIDEO: "We've Come a Long Way, Baby!"

It's about Obama's silence on sexism against Hillary Clinton and his own sexist remarks.

If you approve of the video, I'd appreciate your help in spreading the video by creating a post on the video and ask that you and your readers go to youtube to RATE, COMMENT & mark FAVORITE the video.

Thanks.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

zuzu — Fri, 16 May 2008 22:09:55 -0000

To pursue that further: he should be calling out media bias against Democrats, whether it's based on sexism or racism. But so far, he's only done that with racism.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

zuzu — Fri, 16 May 2008 22:08:39 -0000

Howard Dean could bloody well call out the misogyny in the coverage without endorsing Clinton, just as he managed to call out Fox on its race-baiting related to Rev. Wright.

Which just makes his silence on the blatantly misogynist coverage louder.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

ligedog — Fri, 16 May 2008 19:39:01 -0000

I'm just not sure what Howard Dean had to do with any of it or what he could have done differently. He has made every effort to remain an impartial figure in the race.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

rrp — Fri, 16 May 2008 17:51:02 -0000

I don't think that Cocco is saying that clearly and I think that although there are unreasonable analogies to be made (and have been made) between different oppressions, this isn't one.

sorry if I contributed to the derailment.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

Toonces (MeM) — Fri, 16 May 2008 16:40:36 -0000

I've been trying to think of another comparison that works but it's just hard. I can't imagine Obama saying "Not now, ghetto/trashy/hobo" to a reporter dressed shabbily, or had the reporter been a man with a high voice or maybe even a man dressed as a woman, I can't imagine him saying "Not now, fag/Nancy/queer" (yes it could be flipped on someone else but Obama's example is both easy and timely and relevant what with the silence and all), so there were many making the analogy with Clinton saying "boy". Edit: not that I can imagine Clinton saying "boy" in that context, but it just seemed to work as an analogy. I'm certainly open to different ones.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

CE — Fri, 16 May 2008 16:26:29 -0000

Why am I unsurprised that a thread discussing sexism has yet again morphed into a discussion of racism?

Same reason I am, most likely. And yes, the deafening silence from almost every major Democrat is utterly disgusting, especially considering their personal relationship with the woman in question. Which is not to say that they shouldn't call this shit out regardless. I think loyalty is highly underrated, and so is decency, and so is feminism.

Right now I'm not feeling especially eager to vote for any Democrat in November. They've been utterly silent while Clinton's been gender-trashed six ways to Saturday. I don't matter to them, so I don't know why my vote should either.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

madaha — Fri, 16 May 2008 16:26:03 -0000

Huh. I guess I need further schooling, because I don't see why it's divisive. Saying that it always has been doesn't explain why it is. To me, it's an analogy, which compares two like things, to suggest a corresponding meaning.

Both sexism and racism, though different historically, both are systems of oppression. And they have some similarities in their practice. Which it seems logical to compare.

So, can someone explain why this is divisive? And suggest another analogy that isn't?

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

rrp — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:27:27 -0000

That's not a reasonable extension, it's a naive one.

To argue that the MSM's medias treatment of any issue is a signal of that media's seriousness misreads how media functions in this country at this time.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

madaha — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Again, if you've got a better analogy, then help a girl out! I would love a different one. This one, unfortunately, makes sense for now.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

zuzu — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:20:42 -0000

But it's always done by way of the analogy! And that's my point! I'm far more convinced by any argument (and the Hillary Sexism Watch series has been a really good example of this) that pointedly avoids the sexism/racism analogy. Cocco's argument falls flat when she makes a reversal that doesn't hold water - either logically, or politically.

So how would you make the point?

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

zuzu — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:19:50 -0000

It's not an either/or situation, kliofem. It's a both/and. You don't have to disappear racism to call out sexism, or vice versa. But using an analogy to racism being taken seriously to point out that sexism *also* deserves to be taken seriously does not in any way disappear racism.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

rrp — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:19:28 -0000

And Cocco's making an important point about what's acceptable and what's not acceptable in media. It is not erasing the racist attacks on Obama. Instead it shows how they're forced to be more subtle, less obvious than sexist attacks on Clinton.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

zuzu — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:15:58 -0000

In the second-to-last paragraph of Cocco's essay, she argues that racist attacks against Obama would not be tolerated. I read that to mean that "we're all so much more enlightened about racism, but not about sexism". This erases the racist attacks that have occurred, and it implies that Obama (and black folks generally?) have it easier than women. That's the kind of false hierarchicalizing that I'm talking about.

No, she argues that racist attacks are taken seriously by the media, but sexist attacks are not.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

zuzu — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:14:49 -0000

kliofem, the point of the analogy is that Imus was rightly called out and faced consequences for his racist remarks. However, equally vile, and far more pervasive, sexist bullshit that has been thrown at Clinton by media people has gone unremarked, let alone unpunished.

The point is not to diminish the importance of calling out and acting against racist remarks, or to somehow argue that sexism is worse than racism. And I'm really not sure why you're making that analogy the issue here. We don't have to diminish the importance of calling out racism in order to say that calling out sexism is important and that it is not being done nearly enough.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

madaha — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:09:44 -0000

kliofem:

Ok, I don't get that - which group is supposed to be "better off" when an analogy is made? To me, it says "you get why this example would be bad, so you should understand that this other example is also bad." That's not a contest, that's saying both groups suffer discrimination. And I don't mean that we as a country truly "understand" racism, but that blatant examples are understood. Whereas the article and the comments it generated on Alternet shows that even the most blatant examples of sexism are met with: "well, I don't like Hillary's policies" (therefore nutcrackers in her image are ok).

And if there's a better analogy, let me know!!!

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

rrp — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:08:46 -0000

kilofem, I don't think that Coco is making the Oppression Olympics argument. I think she's pointing out how misogyny enjoys (/sarcasm) a different position in public discourse. To point out that no one would make a tap dancing or watermelon eating Obama doll (though I'm not so sure the idea of the latter isn't floating around in the fetid swamp of someone's imagination) is not to say that racism is gone, just that it isn't relayed in the same blatant way that misogyny is.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

Kathy — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:06:15 -0000

kliofem, I fail to see where Cocco or zuzu or anyone else here says that sexism is worse than racism. Using terms like "Oppression Olympics" to derail discussion is disingenuous at best.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

madaha — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:54:40 -0000

exactly

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

tenacitus — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:52:39 -0000

Personally I think that both sexism and racism are equally important and I am glad that people are discussing both of them on the web inn these boards. I would like to believe that most people here are sincere in wanting to see all people treated with respect. From all my readings of history I have seen that when one type of oppression is fought against if others are also not removed everyone gets back to where they started.

Because of this I don't think that its' bad if folks bring up racism when someone is discussing sexism. Just like if me and other black folks are discussing racism and a woman (especially a black woman) mentions how they have been hurt by sexism. I think that is a good thing since so many people are hurting and feel powerless to end it. At least they can bring up issues that concern them and maybe from this there will come a consensus and understanding. Or maybe everything will go down in flames and everyone will take their oppression ball home

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

madaha — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:46:54 -0000

kliofem: it's not a trade, it's an analogy. Why is that bad, if it helps people to understand? Because people seem to understand racism more than they do sexism, no?

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

madaha — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:41:34 -0000

I think using an analogy like racism helps people to understand how offensive sexism is, and it's not racist to do so. Analogies are a good teaching tool.

If there's a better analogy to use, great, bring it on! Because we really need to get people to understand this!!!!!

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

tenacitus — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:40:47 -0000

Kathy I disagree with you about Michelle Obama there are a number of comments that I read at Tennessee Guerrilla women where folks were saying all kinds of sexist things about her, so in some ways it has started already. However as I have written elsewhere sexism is as American as lynching.

Also there are things like Hillary's Iraq war vote that some people can never forgive. If some folks can thats' all well and good.

Re: Misogyny takes a holiday? Not bloody likely.

Kathy — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:32:14 -0000

*sigh*

kliofem, Cocco's reversal is not facile, it's spot on. Neither Cocco nor zuzu (nor anyone else here) has denied the presence of racism in this campaign. But racism has been called out, over and over, as it should be, while sexism has been ignored, laughed off, or embraced by far too many people who call themselves progressives. Can we talk about that for one comment thread without hearing, "but, but, but racism"?