Shakesville - Latest Comments in I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Az0 — Sun, 10 May 2009 01:35:42 -0000

I was a Korean linguist in the army. I got discharged in 2005 via DADT. I have been saying for years that if they repeal DADT by June, 2010, I will go back in and I still plan to stand by that.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Keori — Sat, 09 May 2009 15:23:24 -0000

Seconding everything Ouyang Dan said about DLI. I was Navy at DLI back in the late 90s. I like to tell people that the reason we keep hearing about all these gay linguists are because 75% of the people coming into DLI are already some flavor of queer, and by the time they leave that number is up to about 98%.

Personally...I need this policy repealed NOW. It is ruining my life NOW. I don't have time for chickenshits to diddle themselves over it, and neither do LT's Tsao and Choi. This shit has to stop NOW.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

OuyangDan — Sat, 09 May 2009 06:36:25 -0000

I think it says a lot more about the lawmakers and Big Brass who seem to think their service members aren't professional enough to deal w/ these situations in a mature manner.

Under DADT, if you even suspect that someone might be gay you are supposed to let a superior know so that an investigation can begin. Investigations begin informally at the lowest possible level so that a person might not even know they are being investigated. Soon all of your Shipmates and Battle Buddies are being brought in to your immediate supervisor, who might only be a pay grade above you or a year longer time in service. Your entire service history and personal life are open to scrutiny long b/f you ever find out what is going on.

I think it's only a matter of time b/f Big Brass change their views as well, as more and more retired officers are coming forward out of the closets, and there are more gay upper enlisted people than I think most current leadership realizes. Were DADT repealed I think people would be surprised how commonplace it already is.

The military is pretty sound in many areas of equality (but not perfect by far). They are culturally and ethnically diverse throughout the ranks and overt racism of any kind will land you in some serious trouble (simply using a racial slur will get you thrown out of boot camp, end of story), and sexual discrimination is making headway more and more. I know few jobs where promotion is so blind that people are lifted to higher rank more evenly among race, class and gender. They need to repeal DADT to prove that they are indeed committed to equality. And the UCMJ needs a serious overhaul in the process.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

LS — Sat, 09 May 2009 05:26:07 -0000

All of his unit mates know he is gay, and they have been very supportive of him.

That's not even all that new, is it? I've had family members in the military going back to WWII, and they all tell about knowing that so-and-so in the unit "played for the other team" but as long as he did his job, who cared? Seems like the whole line about cohesion of the unit is so much bunk. Professional conduct is professional conduct.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

megpie71 — Fri, 08 May 2009 20:57:04 -0000

I'd point out the main problem with "don't ask, don't tell" as a policy aimed at dealing with any problematic situation is it clearly doesn't work when the people who are supposed to be not asking aren't holding up their end of the bargain. If the US military is holding investigations into whether or not their staff are homosexual, surely that's asking in a pretty big way. In that context, I'd say the President has a fairly strong obligation to be at least suspending the investigations.

But then, I'm Australian, and I've never understood the whole fascination with sexuality as a major issue that appears to happen in the US. Over here, "none of your business" is a perfectly acceptable response to questions about sexuality and sexual practice. Heck, the only time I feel questions about sexuality are actually merited is when someone is asking you whether you'd like to have sex with them; in which case, yes means yes, no means no, and never the twain should be mistaken for one another. Possibly I'm weird.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

OuyangDan — Fri, 08 May 2009 16:39:02 -0000

The year after I graduated from DLI about three times as many Navy linguists as the listed stat of Army linguists were discharged under DADT. FWIW, the Navy and Air Force produce more linguists than the other two branches and the Coast Guard combined. It isn't just the Army. The military is short on linguists, especially in Arabic and Farsi, and they are throwing out large portions of those highly needed, highly expensive to train (about $3 Million a year per student in a two year training program, excluding the cost of the highly extensive background investigations we all endure) Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines. I watched my hard working and brilliant friends either live under constant stress of being found out or discharged quickly after the grueling training, and it is so incredibly sad and angry making. It is not easy training, and is considered among the most difficult training in the military (and is why I get pissy when people make fun of "military intelligence"), w/ one of the highest suicide rates among "A" Schools. I have met more LGBTQ people since being a part of the community than I had in the rest of my life prior, and they are highly concentrated in what is selected out of the top three percent of the military academically. To throw away a service member so casually w/ so much life and emotional investment on one side and the financial investment on the other is shameful. No wonder we spend so much fucking money on the military, b/c first we train them and then throw them on their asses for being who they are.

DADT has got to go. It is ruining lives, and I can tell you it is costing way more money than most people suspect.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Spectrum Blue — Fri, 08 May 2009 16:32:29 -0000

I wrote an email to the President this morning, but I worry that Congress will be pointed to as a stalling point. So maybe we need to poke Congress while we're at it? The bill mentioned on Maddow's show (HR 1283) is shown as being in the House Subcommittee on Military Personnel.

The people on that subcommittee are: Chairwoman Susan A. Davis, D-CA, Ranking Member Joe Wilson, R-SC, Vic Snyder, R-Arkansas, Walter B. Jones, R-North Carolina, Loretta Sanchez, D-California, John Kline, R-Minnesota, Madeleine Bordallo, D-Guam, Tom Rooney, R-Florida, Patrick Murphy, D-Pennsylvania, Mary Fallin, R-Oklahoma, Hank Johnson, D-Georgia, John Fleming, R-Louisiana, Carol Shea-Porter, D-New Hampshire, David Loebsack, D-Iowa, Niki Tsongas, D-Massachusetts.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

afroacademic — Fri, 08 May 2009 14:43:23 -0000

Sarah,

Suspending investigations sounds good at first glance. I worry about the independence of the JAG corp and stepping on officer discretion (my father is a commanding officer and has often decided not to pursue particular investigations against his soldiers when it is his right to). But those worries are outweighed by the need for action. So, from a legal standpoint I'd be ok with suspending investigations, but officers can still bring charges without JAG investigation, if my understanding of the UCMJ is correct so I'm wondering what other kinds of orders would need to be issued.

Either way, there will come the moment when the President meets the hard wall of the above officer discretion and some part of the military will make a fuss. I'm hopeful that that portion is now a minority but I don't know.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Sarah from Chicago — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:54:43 -0000

afroacademic -

Would you support a temporary hold on investigations of LGBT service-people as an executive order? Just until the official change is made by Congress? Like you I'm uncomfortable with the amount of power Bush gave in regards to executive orders, and rewriting the UCMJ would be a step too far for me as well, as much as I detest this policy.

But a temporary suspension of investigations till the details of the congressional repeal are done? That I'm inclined to think is easily within his purview.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Melissa McEwan — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:51:23 -0000

Obama is not doing anything about this because he is afraid of 1/4 of the country's response to this.

And the military's response. Despite there being wide support for the repeal of DADT among the rank and file, among the brass, there is still a lot of support for keeping the policy in place.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

MissusWing — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:50:59 -0000

thank you for inspiring me. i wrote Mr Obama a letter (cobbled a lot from aproustian's post, thanks!)

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

afroacademic — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:38:20 -0000

I'm glad Melissa brought up the executive order idea but like you I'm extremely uncomfortable with the President using them to bypass Congress on issues that are clearly not his purview. The UCMJ is one of those being an Act of Congress. What else does the UCMJ do, well it also makes torture at the hands of the military illegal. While I support action I don't like the precedent it sets, especially after 8 years of illegal action by the President using executive orders as fiat.
That said I'd like to know where the Democratic Congress is on this. I'm all for busting Obama's chops on LGBT issues but I also voted in a democratic majority that seems to not be doing much either.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Vicster — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:31:31 -0000

That ain't exactly the spirit of "Yes We Can," Mr. President. Just. fucking. do. it.

Yes. This. Exactly this.

This weekend, when I have some time for coherent thought, I will be writing President Obama and urging him to shitcan DADT and to do everything in his power to make sure Lt. Choi and others who have been dismissed from service for being gay are reinstated.

Very good post, Liss. Watching his interview with Rachel Maddow last night I was equal parts angry and heartsick, all the while thinking that Lt. Choi is my hero.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

appending_doom — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:27:49 -0000

One of the many aggravating points about this whole issue is that according to a poll last year, 75% of Americans think we ought to get rid of DADT, including 2/3 of CONSERVATIVES, and 57% of white Evangelical Christians. Hell, even half of polled veterans think gays should be allowed to serve openly.

Obama is not doing anything about this because he is afraid of 1/4 of the country's response to this.

I'd love to see him pull the goddamned "National Security" card and play it here. To help bring down part of homophobia FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY, and listen to the pundits choke on their own spit trying to claim that he's made us less safe by increasing the number of highly-qualified soldiers we've got.

(Link: http://www.washingtonpost.c...

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

vesta44 — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:18:39 -0000

I don't know where anyone gets off saying GLBT in the military is a disruption of morale. DH was in the Navy for 20 years (and 20 days), retired 15 years ago, and there were gays on most of the ships he served on. According to him, it was no big deal, most of the sailors on board knew who was gay and who wasn't and there just wasn't time or energy to hassle anyone over who they slept with. DH is 53, and while he's sexist and misogynistic at times, the one thing he isn't is homophobic (I'm working on the sexist/misogynistic parts of him), so it's total bullshit for the brass to say that gayness/queerness is a morale-buster for the military.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

aproustian — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:10:07 -0000

Also emailed the President:

Mr. President and Staff,
First, thank you for the excellent job you are doing on so many topics, such as dropping the Abstinence only education from the budget.

However, after watching the New England states advance in gay and lesbian rights, it is particularly disheartening to hear the story of Lt. Dan Choi, the West Point graduate and Arabic translator fired from the military because he is gay. Why is the President stalling on the issue of DADT? That policy does nothing but hurt our military and that hurts our nation. I expect more from President Obama. Even if Congressional action is necessary to completely repeal DADT, an executive order by the President could stop the unnecessary, harmful firings of the brave men and women in the military whose only "fault" is their sexual orientation. We know from other countries who have legalized gay and lesbian inclusion in the military that doing so only strengthens it. Please, stop DADT.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

roramich — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:09:48 -0000

LOVE the WW! and that scene is one of my all time favs!

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

ethel — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:44:22 -0000

That's West Wing? As in, not real life? Sob.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Scott Madin — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:32:26 -0000

Siobhan, I love that episode.

OK, I mean, it's The West Wing. I love a lot of episodes.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Sarah from Chicago — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:31:02 -0000

Roxie, give him some time. It will change.

No.

Sorry, we backed him BIG-TIME, and really what the fuck has he done? Nothing. On anything gay rights related.

We're not asking for the country to be changed into all pink flying unicorns farting gay rainbows all the time overnight, we're just asking for some small, over-due, changes that are easily in his purview. It's not like Obama hasn't already been using the executive powers that Bush gave POTUS, so to then claim it is not appropriate to use such for a an obvious travesty like this (hell, just a putting of the damn policy on pause, on hold, till the full congressional revocation can occur), is hypocritical at best.

I am really bloody well sick and tired of being told time after time after time that we just need to wait, that we shouldn't expect windfalls overnight. Yes, I know he has a lot on his plate right now ... but you know what? So does Lt. Dan Choi.

Fuck this back of the bus shit.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Melissa McEwan — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:24:56 -0000

makes note not to be IWC (Incoherent Whilst Commenting) in future

You weren't IWC at all, Bob. Like I said, I wasn't directing my ire at you in the slightest! I was just letting loose on WIW to me for Obama's edification (not that he'll ever read it, but you know, lol). :-)

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Siobhan — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:24:23 -0000

There was a great scene from the WW where the African-American chief of staff walked into a room of senior miltary personnel arguing DADT:

Major Tate: Sir, we're not prejudiced toward homosexuals.
Admiral Percy Fitzwallace: You just don't want to see them serving in the Armed Forces?
Major Tate: No sir, I don't.
Admiral Percy Fitzwallace: 'Cause they impose a threat to unit discipline and cohesion.
Major Tate:Yes, sir.
Admiral Percy Fitzwallace: That's what I think, too. I also think the military wasn't designed to be an instrument of social change.
Major Tate:Yes, sir.
Admiral Percy Fitzwallace: The problem with that is that what they were saying to me 50 years ago. Blacks shouldn't serve with whites. It would disrupt the unit. You know what? It did disrupt the unit. The unit got over it. The unit changed. I'm an admiral in the U.S. Navy and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff... Beat that with a stick.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

bgk — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:19:12 -0000

larkohio,
Just give him time... No, that's so unfair to people who are suffering NOW from his actions/inactions on the gay political arena.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

Allie — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:17:37 -0000

If you care about this issue - the Servicemembers Legal Defence Network is doing incredible work. They ahve an action alert set up at their website www.sldn.org to send messages to the President and some other online tools. While you're there - think about throwing them some change to support their work.

Re: I Am an American Citizen and I Want Dan Choi in the Military

LizardOC — Fri, 08 May 2009 10:58:00 -0000

So glad to see this here. Dan Choi is from my area (Orange County), and though I haven't yet had the pleasure of meeting him, we have a large number of mutual friends through his chorus and his church. There was an impromptu rally at UC-Irvine yesterday in support of Dan and all who have been affected by DADT, and I'm seriously bummed that I wasn't able to be there with my camera, but enough people turned out to score some very positive coverage in the local media. He's a brave man, a true patriot, and a much-needed human face on the travesty of DADT.

Fix it, Obama.