Shakesville - Latest Comments in Bathrooms, again? Still?

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

CaitieCat — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:25:56 -0000

I do see that, and as I say, I don't in any way think you meant anything harmful by it - but you also specifically referred to the idea of the two-spirited person, which isn't by any means found in all First Nations cultures in North America, as being the reason for being baffled by the insensitivity. Had you left out the specific reference to a cultural practice only belonging to some subset of the First Nations as a group, it wouldn't feel like treating their culture as unvarying across the whole of the range of cultures of the First Nations - from Inuit, to the northwestern forest-dwelling fisher peoples, to the plains hunters, and so on, there's a lot of variation, and by no means do they all have the concept of the two-spirited person.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

MonicaR62 — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:40:44 -0000

i see this as problematic in two ways. One, it suggests that First Nations culture is monolithic. This is no more true than it is to say "European culture has the concept of the siesta"

No Cathiecat, I'm not implying or suggesting in that comment that First Nations culture is monolithic. What I am saying is that as a persecuted minority group, you would expect more sensitivity to the plight of other minority groups.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

SteffaB — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:30:04 -0000

I work for a staffing service, and one of our staffers is a trans woman. On her first assignment, this very thing came up - the female employees where uncomfortable having her in the ladies' bathroom and neither she nor the male employees were comfortable with her using the men's room. She graciously consented to use the restroom at the convenience store next to where she was working, and everybody calmed down. I asked her if she was really ok with that. She shrugged and said, "I'm not happy about it, but I need the job."

I really don't care who's using which facilities, and I have certainly been known to use the empty men's room when waiting for the ladies' room would have meant having an accident.
And I'll confess that I've even exercised my gender privilege a few times to get to the front of the line in the ladies' room of a gay bar when I was one of maybe three women on site - the guys just laughed and let me jump the line. (Although after a couple of times, I just gave up and peed in the woods like everybody else.)

All that said, I've never had to live with that particular brand of every-day prejudice, and brava to those who speak up about it and make us examine our privilege, even in the bathroom. Excellent post, CaitieCat.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

napalmnacey — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:03:24 -0000

I was assaulted in my house. In my room. By someone I knew.

I have never, ever in my life felt threatened or frightened around trans folk.

Shit like this makes me so mad, so tired, so frightened for the world. Well, either way, transwomen can piss in the toilet with me any time.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

jbilodo — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:59:05 -0000

The part I don't get is where the trans woman is supposed to go to take a leak? ... practically.

Does anyone actually think that the men's room is a better idea? Or is the idea just to make the person feel like they don't belong anywhere?

Sorry, just trying to put myself in the person's shoes and I never thought about how this type of thing might segregate people out of public life.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

CaitieCat — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:22:46 -0000

My sergeant once told me:

"Kid...shit rolls downhill. The higher up someone goes, the less shit they want to deal with, so they shove it down the hill. The only way to end up not wading in shit is to climb the hill yourself."

I don't think he meant it this way, but I tend to think of this as a pretty good analogy for privilege, and whether you want to take it up. Some people do, because they get tired of the shit pouring on their own heads, so they shove it downhill - this lets them feel good about themselves on some level, because they're not being shit on as much anymore. And hey, that's got to feel good, y'know? And then they just try not to think of the fact that that lump, downhill, covered in the shit they just pushed down, is actually another human being, who would like, ideally, not to be covered in shit either.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

TheDeviantE — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:15:34 -0000

hey, just an update about Massachusetts: yesterday at the hearing, which was coincidentally in Boston, which coincidentally has a non-discrimination law covering, coincidentally bathrooms, a trans woman was "reported" to the state rangers for using the bathroom appropriate, and told that if she was ever caught in the women's again, the ranger would arrest her. At a fucking hearing about trans rights, surrounded by trans rights activists.

sighsob

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

Chrysalis15 — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:04:36 -0000

Winterowl, I know exactly what you mean. And the thing is, I don't really know what to do about those kinds of people. Especially someone who falls into the "liberal but transphobic" category. Even my cross-dressing, possibly trans* (he is still unsure) friend displays huge acts of bigotry toward people with varying sex and gender preferences. It baffles me!

I guess it's just important to recognize that people's views aren't binary either, that we fall in different places along a long spectrum. We can raise up teaspoons and keep fighting to educate and enlighten, ...but you can't force someone to learn or accept others, or even themselves if they don't want to. :(

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

BC Holmes — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:40:09 -0000

Great post, CaitieCat.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

BigDots — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:03:01 -0000

Thanks, CaitieCat & winterowl. Much appreciated. This has definitely become a safe space for me (even as I'm still learning what that means and how to practice it!).

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

speedbudget — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:27:02 -0000

The coolest bathroom I was ever in was at this restaurant in New York City. There was only one bathroom, and one wall was almost completely covered in mirror. The opposite wall was the stalls, which all had glass doors. Every other stall had a urinal in it. They all had their own toilet and sink. When you went in, the lock mechanism was a hook-and-eye, and when you put the eye in the hook, the glass immediately turned to sandblown and a light lit up in the interior of the room. It was so awesome to pee in there.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

winterowl — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:41:17 -0000

(((koach)))

while otherwise are fairly progressive

This is one of those lolsob phrases for me. It just comes up over and over again. Like Otherwise Progressive Person is nonetheless "surprisingly" misogynistic, or homophobic, or racist. I used to notice myself imagining a whole cluster of ideas when I discovered someone was "progressive" or "liberal", only to discover that this person was wildly different. Liberal, but transphobic. Progressive, but what did he just say about immigrants? I guess it was part of that whole voyage of discovery where I realize what an uncertain ground labels make. I'm not putting this well. But these days when someone says to me that they're a liberal or a democrat of whatever label I might have once viewed favorably, now I just have this reaction like "I'll believe it when I'm not recoiling in horror in a few minutes"... which I guess is sad.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

Chrysalis15 — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 05:28:52 -0000

I know this is a HUGE issue, but I'm struggling to see it as anything beyond ignorance. I don't think anyone who has ever freaked out at someone in the bathroom for being in the "wrong" room, really felt threatened or was worried about x,y,z, or thought very much of anything besides "omg boys go in boys rooms and girls go in girls rooms" (like our instinct to queue...it's deeply ingrained from childhood). After the incident ends, they realize that their original notion may be dumb and further rationalize their actions.

That sort of post-action rationalization happens all the time.

And it reminds me of people, who, while otherwise are fairly progressive, still freak out and start off their stories with stuff like, "So today I saw a tranny" without even realizing that they are othering human beings. To them, it's like getting a free ticket to the circus. To them, it's no different than ogling the punk kid with 20 piercings and a bright green mohawk, and maybe they think that person is just doing it for attention, but mostly I think they are just enjoying the free "show" (and maybe judging that person for their choices too).

I think it's important that our laws recognize the need for shared bathrooms, but it's going to take a lot more effort in the public community at large. While many people are making great strides in same-sex marriage, the gender binary is still VERY much in play.

And... Caitie, love your posts and your contributions here.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

CaitieCat — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 01:09:37 -0000

(((koach)))

Feel free to e-mail me if you want a private sounding board, koach, k?

And Shihtzustaff, thanks! Our neighbours have made a pretty welcoming home here, I'm glad I can be here too. :)

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

Christine — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 00:48:47 -0000

I love having a Canadian voice at Shakesville!

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

BigDots — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:29:17 -0000

Confession time: I have a hard time reading the posts about trans issues; I've not yet been able to read the awesome-sounding 'Trials and Travails of Transness.' The reason? I think this could be me. As I come to know myself better and better, I think I'm not straight cis, but I don't know what that means for me, for my future, for my partner, for any of it. (I didn't even know the word cis two months ago.) Because of the tiny bits and pieces I've read on the internet, I'm pretty terrified of being less than pure-cis (is that even correct? a real thing? the right words?) and what it means for me. But it's also so, so important to me to learn about trans stuff (for lack of better language). So stories like this speak to me on so many different levels. As does the comment thread. So thanks for the story, the commentary, the comments, all that.

And, as an aside, the fuss over bathrooms seems so freakin' absurd. One of the least important things I can think of.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

Jenny — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:32:20 -0000

@ CaitieCat: ((((You))))

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

CaitieCat — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:10:35 -0000

@ kid_lightning: one of the things I encountered when I was posted to Europe with the Canadian Forces (way back in 85 - hilariously, this aging commie, back in those days, was charged along with my colleagues with the defense of the West from - well, basically, people like me), was unisex bathrooms in many facilities. At the Caracalla-Therme (the hot springs) in Baden-Baden, all the bathrooms which were not changing facilities were unisex. And the spa area itself, open to children and all, was fully clothing-optional.

It really is an English-language-culture preoccupation, in some ways (covering the UK, much of Canada and the US), this bizarre total body shame that means men and women can't be around one another at all while naked, unless it's an explicitly sexual situation.

@ Jenny Anne: (((you))) - I remember that humiliation too well. Goddess...the number of times I've been places with friends and had some jackass pushing the wrong pronoun or address. I'm so glad and fortunate that those days are pretty much behind me.

More generally, I can say this, too: one time I was in a problem with one of the bathroom bigots, someone giving me a hard time because I wasn't where I belonged. She and her friends started hassling me physically, shoving me, punching my arms and so on. And all I could think was, "I don't dare fight back - because if I so much as lay a finger on anyone, who are the police going to arrest?" My ID didn't match in those days, meaning if a police officer came, they would be almost certainly putting me in the boy-jail.

And really, who is going to be believed, in the mid-90s: the group of cis women, or the wild-eyed (with fear) trans woman?

I was lucky, on that occasion: two of the women I'd come to the bar with came in to find out why I'd been so long, and jumped in to help me get out safely.

Should you ever be, my friends, in a situation where this is being done to a trans person, please, please speak up. Say something. Take a cell phone picture. Get the badge numbers of security guards or police officers. You might be saving someone's life.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

kid_lightning — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:55:31 -0000

Anyone else suddenly think about how porta-potties are all unisex? There's a toilet and a urinal in each, at least in all that I've seen in the last few years.

Is there less of a chance of rape because no one in their right mind would go in there voluntarily? Or because it's out in the open? Or because it's virtually impossible to get two people in one at the same time?

So why is it so wrong to have public unisex bathrooms indoors?

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

Jenny — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:31:06 -0000

I've had a relatively easy transition. However, 'the bathroom issue' has bitten me a couple of times at work. And though my employer has a policy that protects me from discrimination for gender ID, an employee of another company was so offended by my presence that she complained to her management and they tried to get me fired. Yes, this cis woman's' privilege was worth more to her than my livelihood. Fortunately, my employer cocked a snook at them and we continued on.

Honestly, I don't know of a trans* woman who HASN'T run afoul of someone playing potty patrol- not to mention that every.single.time a non-discrimination bill or ordinance comes up, the right wingers trot out the worn out trope of the 'bathroom bill' and 'perverts in the women's room after our womenz and childrenz'... I can't describe how humiliating this is.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

megpie71 — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:11:21 -0000

Y'know, it's reading stuff like this which makes me happy I'm not sane. At least being crazy, I know the problem is with me, rather than the world at large. Or at least, I hope so.

To raise an interesting question: why the heck, in this day and age, are excretion facilities segregated by gender? What's wrong with just a row of cubicles, each with an altar to the porcelain gods of waste management, and doing things like raising and lowering the seat depending on whether one is a setter or a pointer? In each cubicle place one of those lovely little rectangular boxen for disposal of "sanitary wastes", put a condom dispenser and a "sanitary goods" dispenser on the wall next to one another (with an area to change nappies not too far away from that), and get someone to clean the place, replace the loo paper and refill the soap dispensers every so often.

(For those people who get all offended by the notion of peens and vajayjays[1] sharing the same room to pee, could they please explain how they manage to cope with what's a pretty standard occurrence anywhere parents take young children - namely mothers taking very young sons, or fathers taking very young daughters, into the facilities appropriate for the parent's gender rather than the child's.)

Yes, for an actual area for washing one's person I can see the sense in segregating things - so, for example, the swimming pools would be one place I *wouldn't* expect to have unisex excretion facilities (particularly given most women's one-piece swimsuits are designed so you have to pretty much strip in order to use said facilities). Our culture has an unfortunate preoccupation with the notion of nudity equalling sexual availability, so areas where nudity would be expected as a matter of course probably should be either segregated, or (for preference) constructed in such a manner that the gender identity of the person who is using them is not immediately obvious to all and sundry.

[1] Or even, heaven help us, penises and vaginas.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

quixote — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:00:45 -0000

Thanks for the explanation. I can picture the standing in line scenario. (I should have thought of that. D'oh!)

Makes me realize just how *many* reasons there are we need ENDA, and, well, just plain old lessons in manners for Maud's sake. That whole live-and-let-live concept.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

CaitieCat — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:58:27 -0000

Believe me, if her feet were the "wrong" way, she'd have been the rarest trans woman i've ever known. It's a basic survival skill, knowing how to blend in - and that would be a poor way of blending in.

My guess is that the complainant saw her going in, or saw her waiting for a stall or something, and misread her as a man (I don't use "read", because it's not "reading" me to think me a man: it's mis-reading me). This happens, sadly, all too often.

For an example of how it happens, there's a chillingly accurate scene in Better than Chocolate (an excellent lesbian-oriented film, and Canadian to boot) where a trans woman is assaulted by a lesbian in the bathroom of a queer bar. It always leaves me shaking to watch that scene, because of some of my own trauma history (which I'll leave for another day).

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

Val Prism — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:39:20 -0000

Yeah, quixote, I was wondering that, too. How DID anyone know she is trans? I read the article and unless I missed it (totally possible) I didn't see it.

Re: Bathrooms, again? Still?

$165396 — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:36:43 -0000

We had unisex bathrooms on every hall when I was in college (even the same sex halls). the only problem I encountered was the drunken messes some people (sad to say, most often men) would leave. Such as beer bottles in the shower... I wish that bathroom segregation could be enforced according to cleanliness and courtesy. Honestly, it's not who goes into which bathroom, it's how they behave once they get in there.

@quixote: yeah, it would be kinda rude to scrutinize other people in the bathroom. And even if her feet were facing the "wrong" way, that doesn't mean anything. I often face the toilet or stand sideways when dealing with my menstrual needs.