Shakesville - Latest Comments in Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

notapooka — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:35:40 -0000

My thoughts for the first half of the article: About fucking time, yo.

My thoughts upon reading the quote about how poverty clearly affects abortion rates: ...and you're just now figuring this out?

My thoughts upon reading the guy saying that, well, actually, we don't really understand how poverty affects abortion rates: *headdesk headdesk headdesk*

that's okay, i read "All it takes is seeing a little bit of GAY in the world".

I'm so glad it wasn't just me. XD

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

nuclearmse — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:20:49 -0000

I'm sure that feminists will only receive credit in certain circles for arguments that we have been making for DECADES, but I'm trying to remain hopeful. We forced them to concede to reality and in the process fractured their movement a little. And if these services actually come to pass, many more women and children will receive the assistance they need to live a little better in our society.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

SunlessNick — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 01:10:25 -0000

You use ketchup or gravy?

I'm a Brit; we curry them.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Flewellyn — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:23:33 -0000

I certainly see the frustration here. I feel it myself!

But then I start thinking...this is kind of a retreat on their part. They've been fighting us on the issue of providing better health care for so long, to see them back off, well. It's quite something.

Is it really a victory for us, or merely a tactical retreat on their part? I say, the difference is one of PR. Let's claim it as a victory for our side, and put them on the defensive.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

SunlessNick — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:14:27 -0000

In the satanist-socialist freedom-hating countries I come from, Scandinavia, you might think that we eat unborn babies on a daily basis - after all, there's universal health care (not "free insurance" but simply health care for all) and abortion is free and no-questions asked. But the Scandinavian countries absurdly have the lowest abortion-rate in the world too, even though it's free and available and not taboo (to the same extent as here).

Maybe Americans have better foetal recipes.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Zhana — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:40:15 -0000

Ole: WIN.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Marianne — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:12:10 -0000

You know, Liss, I lurk here and almost never comment, certainly would never presume to comment on recent events 'round the ol' blog while they are happening....being pretty much a stranger, I really don't feel it is my place.

But all the same, I am goddamn glad you are back. I loved this post. Thank you for all you do.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

TheSeaHag — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:52:32 -0000

Some of the activists are actually working with abortion rights advocates to push for legislation in Congress that would provide pregnant women with health care, child care and money for education -- services that could encourage them to continue their pregnancies.

FINALLY! I know that it's not everything it could be. I know that their motivations are possibly/probably suspect in that they may be coming from a place of "Let's make sure women keep havin' babies!" And I know that this is what feminists have been saying forfuckingever and it's infuriating to have these doodz suddenly "discover" the truth of why many women have abortions the same way Columbus "discovered America." But fuck it, I am just so thrilled that some sense may finally have gotten through all the fingers-in-the-ears, lalalalaIcan'thearyou bullshit that I'm actually tearing up a bit. I blame PMS.

When I used to identify as pro-life (I'm sorry, I'm better now), this is exactly the kind of stuff that I would argue for - more resources for pregnant women, affordable child care, etc. And the fact that precisely no one in the "pro-life" movement was interested was the beginning of my eyes being opened to the fact that "pro-life" was just another way of saying "anti-woman."

I still identify as pro-life (with the caveat that abortion needs to remain safe and LEGAL--'cause, you know, pro-life is supposed to mean you care about everyone's life) and yep, this is the kind of stuff I've been arguing for for years. And you're right, very few people in the organized "pro-life movement" care to hear about it. It's easier to demonize women than it is to criticize the government and work for social justice.

BTW, Ophelia, I had a similar experience in a Bible study class, back in my Catholic days--not about abortion but about women's rights in general. The (male, of course) teacher was getting really pissed at me, but fortunately one of my favorite nuns happened to come into the room to get something and backed me up with the most beautifully offhand dismissal of misogynist crap in the Bible as the teacher silently fumed. I wanted to hug her.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

The Bald Soprano — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:26:15 -0000

The Procrastinator: I don't have online links at my fingertips, unfortunately. If you email me (my email address is on my blogger profile), I'll pull some info together for you specifically about the birth-rate question and the New Towns. There's a short explanation about them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

The birth rate question was not the only factor in the planning of the New Towns, of course, but it was an acknowledged factor.

I've been a TA for a class that touched on this. :)

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Betsy — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:33:06 -0000

Question: How long do you think it will take before history is rewritten so that the legislation which would "provide pregnant women with health care, child care and money for education -- services that could encourage them to continue their pregnancies" becomes the sole province of the Very Serious Centrist Men (possibly including our new president-elect) who found the "middle ground" on abortion that extremists on both sides couldn't find, despite the reality that feminists have been advocating for exactly these social services for longer than I've been alive?

Answer: It's already been done. See: Saletan, Lord. His columns in slate about this a few years back practically made me throw my laptop against the wall. He said all these things like he was the first person on earth to have such a brilliant solution. He did this in a bunch of articles, but here's one random example of the first thing that turned up when I googled Saletan abortion compromise:

http://www.washingtonpost.c...

Note how he acts like the abortion-rights supporters need someone to tell them to advocate for the things we already damned well were advocating for.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Jay in Oregon — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:20:22 -0000

(Off-topic but in context...)

Obama’s name is has 6 letters in each name…666 see!

She might have been confused, given that "Barack Hussein Obama" is 18 letters and three words. So that's not much of a stretch, although her stubbornness was still highly amusing -- kinda like poking fun at the kid who worships "Satin"...

The problem with that kind of numerology is that it opens up all sorts of possibilities. There's the obvious "666", and of course any combination that adds up to 18 (because that's three 6's!) is suspect, as we'll also see later.

But then you can really reach and say that "999" is just as bad, because it's "666" upside down!. And once you discount 9's, you have to throw out all sorts of numbers that add up to 9 in some manner, such as 18 -- hey, wait a minute -- 27, 36, 45, 54, 63, 72, 81, etc., etc.

As long as we're superstitious, let's toss "13" in the mix. 13 is a prime number so there aren't too many things we can do with that; I would point out that "Barack Hussein" is 13 letters, boogedy boogedy!

We can knock out about every other even number because the Japanese tradtionally associate the number "4" with death.

My point is, given enough operations, you can make almost any number mean anything or tie it to anything. As far as I can tell, the only safe number is a prime number (well, except for that unlucky 13...)

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

flea — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:19:10 -0000

Don't feel too bad; it was highly entertaining.

I enjoyed it as well.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

The Procrastinator — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:16:47 -0000

@ Bald Soprano
I've never heard of the New Towns and the Google search I just did wasn't too successful. Could you point me in the right direction?

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

monalisa — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:42:27 -0000

Oops - wrong thread!

Don't feel too bad; it was highly entertaining.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Midgetqueen — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:38:10 -0000

The Bald Soprano:

I'm thinkin' that'd be a resounding YES. They can *try* all they want to take undue credit. Let's not let 'em succeed.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Guest — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:08:25 -0000

mr_subjunctive, good call. This IS progress. We DID make them cede a little ground. Teaspoons locked and loaded.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Hawise- The Big Apron — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:51:23 -0000

I can say from experience that if you offer a good environment for women to have and raise children those who want to will. This will not eliminate the need for abortions because there are numerous reasons that are not money and services related to have one. So to see SOME antiabortion advocates seeing the light is awesome because we have tea and cookies on the dark side and we share.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

alexthom — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:43:07 -0000

fascinating = completely bloody infuriating

Right on.

I live in Costa Rica, where even In Vitro is illegal, nevermind abortion, so I share your definition of fascinating.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Apostate — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:28:48 -0000

I don't comment often but wanted to say, love your stuff and glad you decided to keep blogging. The quantity and quality of your writing is invaluable (you're one of two "mainstream feminist" blogs I read, the other being Echidne).

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

ShelbyWoo — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:28:18 -0000

Oops - wrong thread!

That's what I get for commenting at work!

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

ShelbyWoo — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:25:54 -0000

I have class with a woman that swears Obama is the antichrist. And, she has proof dammit! Her biggest, bestest proof? Obama’s name is has 6 letters in each name…666 see! Even after it was pointed out that neither his middle nor his last name have 6 letters, she wasn’t swayed.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Beth — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:20:12 -0000

Melissa, you are seriously the light at the end of my tunnel...okay, that sounded really dirty, but you know what I mean!!

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Stan Alluisi — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:07:50 -0000

Beth said:
And suddenly certain members of anti-abortion groups swoop in and act like this is news just because the winds are changing? I know it's spiteful of me to feel frustrated. I should be happy that there seems to be some re-examining of priorities, but I am so effing sick of feminism and feminists getting "ye ol' pat on the head" once again.

This is why I hate the "prodigal son" story in the Bible and the related "Only Nixon could go to China" variation.

All you folks who were right from day one are not to be trusted! Only those of us who have consistently gotten it wrong, ruined the lives of millions and have FINALLY seen the light can be trusted! Such BS!

This is why they say politics makes strange bedfellows...

Stan.

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

Em — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:48:21 -0000

Lay Catholics have long been ambivalent over the Vatican's stridency re: abortion. There are few who outright oppose it in comparison to the many who feel personally against it but want it legal (perfectly exemplifying the bumper sticker: "don't like abortion? don't have one."). If enough of the intelligenstia break away from the Vatican's position, that's a huge step toward the Church regaining some social justice cred. Now about about those gays....

Re: Anti-Choicers Resign Themselves to Something Vaguely Resembling Compassion

mr_subjunctive — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:47:09 -0000

You know, when the right-wingers make a little bit of progress toward one of their goals, they react to it like it's a victory. They believe in incrementalism, in chipping away at things in small steps over long periods ("partial-birth abortion," e.g.). If the situations were reversed, they would look at this in terms of, hey, we finally pushed the left into conceding a little ground, yay us.

Can the left not do that, too? We made them concede ground, praise Maude, and we'll make them concede more very soon. (Or at least we could try to assume that we'll see this happen again. I know the Democratic leadership could be better on a lot of things, but they, the right, would assume bigger things were coming. We could do that, too.) Not only that, but their side is developing some stress fractures, which at least theoretically makes them easier to drag along in the future. Yes, this could be used coercively, but surely it would help more women than it would hurt, right? Am I way off base in this?